Two comments: 1) Nico Verwer suggests using a general drawing package XY-pic. Drawings and diagrams differ fundamentally on the issue of who decides the position of picture elements. In a drawing package the user decides, in a diagram the program decides. Obviously there are many situations where control is shared in a limited way, but I believe that this difference is sufficiently fundamental to warrant separate packages and syntax for each purpose. In particular the syntax for a diagram can be much terser, since less information is required for processing. Of course, one would want to be able to incorporate a picture in a diagram, or a diagram in a picture, but their natures really are different. Paul Taylor proposes allowing a good interface to any package. Perhaps by separating these issues, the need for many packages can be reduced. 2) The value of having both Tex and Latex is universally acknowledged. The former is a fundamental package, giving full power to the user, while the latter is convenient for the average user. Presumably our diagram tools should be designed in the same way. We need a diagram language based on general principles, and a convenience package built on top for the average user. To illustrate, Tex passed the music test: by adding a few macros, musical scores could be typeset in Tex without any fundamental problems, even though it was not designed for that purpose. Since musical scores are diagrams, perhaps the music test should apply to any diagram package. Barry Jay +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++