Hi everybody, here is a frivolous question only tangentially related to category theory. Does anyone know why it is common, in papers on logic, semantics, and category theory, to spell the word "role" the French way, i.e., with a circumflex accent? I am taking about the idiom "to play a role", as in, "in this definition, x and y play symmetric r\^oles". Sometimes it is also used as in "the r\^ole of x is ...". As far as I can tell, the accented spelling is a strange ideosyncrasy, given that the word "role", without the accent, is a perfectly acceptable, and very common, English word. Here are some examples I collected a few years ago: How big a role did politics play? -Los Angeles Times, March 27, 2002 Huge bomb could play role in Iraq. -The Guardian, March 13, 2003 Australia intends to play a role in [...] Iraq, The Australian, 4/15/2003 A movie in which Nicole Kidman could play the lead role -Business Times, 1/16/3 Genetics play a big role in your health. -Citizen-Times.com, April 11, 2003 Linux prepares to play broader role in embedded systems. -EETimes, 6/11/2001 The UN would play a central role in running the country. -Guardian, 4/10/2003 His role is to lead the paddlers through the race -Waterfront News, Oct 2007 How oil plays a role in an invasion of Iraq. -YellowTimes.org, Jan 22, 2003 I realize that Merriam Webster's Dictionary allows "r\^ole" as an alternate spelling (the Oxford English Dictionary does not, as far as I can see online). However, I have never seen it spelled with the circumflex accent anywhere outside of mathematics. So why is it that so many mathematical authors spell it that way? One explanation would be that the authors are French; however, this does not seem to be empirically true. I have most often seen the spelling used by non-French authors. Another possible explanation is that the word "r\^ole" has a technical meaning that differentiates it from "role". However, I can't imagine what it would be. Maybe this habit has been passed on for generations. Can it perhaps be traced back to a misspelling in some influential article? -- Peter
Hi everybody, here is a frivolous question only tangentially related to category theory. Does anyone know why it is common, in papers on logic, semantics, and category theory, to spell the word "role" the French way, i.e., with a circumflex accent? I am taking about the idiom "to play a role", as in, "in this definition, x and y play symmetric r\^oles". Sometimes it is also used as in "the r\^ole of x is ...". As far as I can tell, the accented spelling is a strange ideosyncrasy, given that the word "role", without the accent, is a perfectly acceptable, and very common, English word. Here are some examples I collected a few years ago: How big a role did politics play? -Los Angeles Times, March 27, 2002 Huge bomb could play role in Iraq. -The Guardian, March 13, 2003 Australia intends to play a role in [...] Iraq, The Australian, 4/15/2003 A movie in which Nicole Kidman could play the lead role -Business Times, 1/16/3 Genetics play a big role in your health. -Citizen-Times.com, April 11, 2003 Linux prepares to play broader role in embedded systems. -EETimes, 6/11/2001 The UN would play a central role in running the country. -Guardian, 4/10/2003 His role is to lead the paddlers through the race -Waterfront News, Oct 2007 How oil plays a role in an invasion of Iraq. -YellowTimes.org, Jan 22, 2003 I realize that Merriam Webster's Dictionary allows "r\^ole" as an alternate spelling (the Oxford English Dictionary does not, as far as I can see online). However, I have never seen it spelled with the circumflex accent anywhere outside of mathematics. So why is it that so many mathematical authors spell it that way? One explanation would be that the authors are French; however, this does not seem to be empirically true. I have most often seen the spelling used by non-French authors. Another possible explanation is that the word "r\^ole" has a technical meaning that differentiates it from "role". However, I can't imagine what it would be. Maybe this habit has been passed on for generations. Can it perhaps be traced back to a misspelling in some influential article? -- Peter
It is, IMHO, a pure affectation. There are a few, very few, English works that might be improved with an accent (e.g the name "Andre", words like "preempt" and a handful of others), but "role" is certainly not one of them. Another affectation is using "topoi" as the plural of topos. If you insist on that, you should use the genetive of "of topos" and the accusative when it is the direct object--not to mention the vocative when addressing a topos. Michael On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Peter Selinger wrote:
Hi everybody,
here is a frivolous question only tangentially related to category theory.
Does anyone know why it is common, in papers on logic, semantics, and category theory, to spell the word "role" the French way, i.e., with a circumflex accent? I am taking about the idiom "to play a role", as in, "in this definition, x and y play symmetric r\^oles". Sometimes it is also used as in "the r\^ole of x is ...".
As far as I can tell, the accented spelling is a strange ideosyncrasy, given that the word "role", without the accent, is a perfectly acceptable, and very common, English word. Here are some examples I collected a few years ago:
How big a role did politics play? -Los Angeles Times, March 27, 2002 Huge bomb could play role in Iraq. -The Guardian, March 13, 2003 Australia intends to play a role in [...] Iraq, The Australian, 4/15/2003 A movie in which Nicole Kidman could play the lead role -Business Times, 1/16/3 Genetics play a big role in your health. -Citizen-Times.com, April 11, 2003 Linux prepares to play broader role in embedded systems. -EETimes, 6/11/2001 The UN would play a central role in running the country. -Guardian, 4/10/2003 His role is to lead the paddlers through the race -Waterfront News, Oct 2007 How oil plays a role in an invasion of Iraq. -YellowTimes.org, Jan 22, 2003
I realize that Merriam Webster's Dictionary allows "r\^ole" as an alternate spelling (the Oxford English Dictionary does not, as far as I can see online). However, I have never seen it spelled with the circumflex accent anywhere outside of mathematics.
So why is it that so many mathematical authors spell it that way? One explanation would be that the authors are French; however, this does not seem to be empirically true. I have most often seen the spelling used by non-French authors. Another possible explanation is that the word "r\^ole" has a technical meaning that differentiates it from "role". However, I can't imagine what it would be.
Maybe this habit has been passed on for generations. Can it perhaps be traced back to a misspelling in some influential article?
-- Peter
It is, IMHO, a pure affectation. There are a few, very few, English works that might be improved with an accent (e.g the name "Andre", words like "preempt" and a handful of others), but "role" is certainly not one of them. Another affectation is using "topoi" as the plural of topos. If you insist on that, you should use the genetive of "of topos" and the accusative when it is the direct object--not to mention the vocative when addressing a topos. Michael On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Peter Selinger wrote:
Hi everybody,
here is a frivolous question only tangentially related to category theory.
Does anyone know why it is common, in papers on logic, semantics, and category theory, to spell the word "role" the French way, i.e., with a circumflex accent? I am taking about the idiom "to play a role", as in, "in this definition, x and y play symmetric r\^oles". Sometimes it is also used as in "the r\^ole of x is ...".
As far as I can tell, the accented spelling is a strange ideosyncrasy, given that the word "role", without the accent, is a perfectly acceptable, and very common, English word. Here are some examples I collected a few years ago:
How big a role did politics play? -Los Angeles Times, March 27, 2002 Huge bomb could play role in Iraq. -The Guardian, March 13, 2003 Australia intends to play a role in [...] Iraq, The Australian, 4/15/2003 A movie in which Nicole Kidman could play the lead role -Business Times, 1/16/3 Genetics play a big role in your health. -Citizen-Times.com, April 11, 2003 Linux prepares to play broader role in embedded systems. -EETimes, 6/11/2001 The UN would play a central role in running the country. -Guardian, 4/10/2003 His role is to lead the paddlers through the race -Waterfront News, Oct 2007 How oil plays a role in an invasion of Iraq. -YellowTimes.org, Jan 22, 2003
I realize that Merriam Webster's Dictionary allows "r\^ole" as an alternate spelling (the Oxford English Dictionary does not, as far as I can see online). However, I have never seen it spelled with the circumflex accent anywhere outside of mathematics.
So why is it that so many mathematical authors spell it that way? One explanation would be that the authors are French; however, this does not seem to be empirically true. I have most often seen the spelling used by non-French authors. Another possible explanation is that the word "r\^ole" has a technical meaning that differentiates it from "role". However, I can't imagine what it would be.
Maybe this habit has been passed on for generations. Can it perhaps be traced back to a misspelling in some influential article?
-- Peter
Hi Peter. The use of the circumflex in "role" is an accepted, but secondary, spelling allowed in most dictionaries (in English, it's a rather old-fashioned spelling coming from the French). The French, in turn, comes from Latin, and the circumflex presumably denotes some missing omitted or contracted stuff (cf. L'H\^optal's rule). Notice that words tend to lose their accents in English as time moves on (and so such French words as " elite, facade" in English have now completely long lost their accents, although some pretentious furniture stores like to speak of "d\'ecor". I think in the case of "role", the use of the circumflex is is just a bit of a curiousity. The meaning is the same, according to all the dictionaries I checked. I should say that Lambek insists on using it in all our papers, so I will check with him why he thinks one should. Cheers, Phil On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Peter Selinger wrote:
Hi everybody,
here is a frivolous question only tangentially related to category theory.
Does anyone know why it is common, in papers on logic, semantics, and category theory, to spell the word "role" the French way, i.e., with a circumflex accent? I am taking about the idiom "to play a role", as in, "in this definition, x and y play symmetric r\^oles". Sometimes it is also used as in "the r\^ole of x is ...".
As far as I can tell, the accented spelling is a strange ideosyncrasy, given that the word "role", without the accent, is a perfectly acceptable, and very common, English word. Here are some examples I collected a few years ago:
How big a role did politics play? -Los Angeles Times, March 27, 2002 Huge bomb could play role in Iraq. -The Guardian, March 13, 2003 Australia intends to play a role in [...] Iraq, The Australian, 4/15/2003 A movie in which Nicole Kidman could play the lead role -Business Times, 1/16/3 Genetics play a big role in your health. -Citizen-Times.com, April 11, 2003 Linux prepares to play broader role in embedded systems. -EETimes, 6/11/2001 The UN would play a central role in running the country. -Guardian, 4/10/2003 His role is to lead the paddlers through the race -Waterfront News, Oct 2007 How oil plays a role in an invasion of Iraq. -YellowTimes.org, Jan 22, 2003
I realize that Merriam Webster's Dictionary allows "r\^ole" as an alternate spelling (the Oxford English Dictionary does not, as far as I can see online). However, I have never seen it spelled with the circumflex accent anywhere outside of mathematics.
So why is it that so many mathematical authors spell it that way? One explanation would be that the authors are French; however, this does not seem to be empirically true. I have most often seen the spelling used by non-French authors. Another possible explanation is that the word "r\^ole" has a technical meaning that differentiates it from "role". However, I can't imagine what it would be.
Maybe this habit has been passed on for generations. Can it perhaps be traced back to a misspelling in some influential article?
-- Peter
Dear Peter, A quick check in the Chambers dictionary gives r\^ole as an alternative spelling and derives the word from the French. The Robert and the Petit Larousse both give its origins (12th c) as from latin rota or rotulus so the circumflex is the usual sign of a missing consonant. The word was adopted into English a long time ago, so the circumflex is not needed in that language any longer, but I have seen it used in the (better) newspapers in the UK. I won't give what the tabloid press would give as spelling!!!!! The French meaning includes that of roll. Perhaps an interesting story of its use spelling would be worth while ferreting out. Best wishes, Tim -- Gall y neges e-bost hon, ac unrhyw atodiadau a anfonwyd gyda hi, gynnwys deunydd cyfrinachol ac wedi eu bwriadu i'w defnyddio'n unig gan y sawl y cawsant eu cyfeirio ato (atynt). Os ydych wedi derbyn y neges e-bost hon trwy gamgymeriad, rhowch wybod i'r anfonwr ar unwaith a dilëwch y neges. Os na fwriadwyd anfon y neges atoch chi, rhaid i chi beidio â defnyddio, cadw neu ddatgelu unrhyw wybodaeth a gynhwysir ynddi. Mae unrhyw farn neu safbwynt yn eiddo i'r sawl a'i hanfonodd yn unig ac nid yw o anghenraid yn cynrychioli barn Prifysgol Bangor. Nid yw Prifysgol Bangor yn gwarantu bod y neges e-bost hon neu unrhyw atodiadau yn rhydd rhag firysau neu 100% yn ddiogel. Oni bai fod hyn wedi ei ddatgan yn uniongyrchol yn nhestun yr e-bost, nid bwriad y neges e-bost hon yw ffurfio contract rhwymol - mae rhestr o lofnodwyr awdurdodedig ar gael o Swyddfa Cyllid Prifysgol Bangor. www.bangor.ac.uk (YCYG) This email and any attachments may contain confidential material and is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you must not use, retain or disclose any information contained in this email. Any views or opinions are solely those of the sender and do not necessarily represent those of Bangor University. Bangor University does not guarantee that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or 100% secure. Unless expressly stated in the body of the text of the email, this email is not intended to form a binding contract - a list of authorised signatories is available from the Bangor University Finance Office. www.bangor.ac.uk (SEECS)
Dear Peter With questions like this, we naturally miss Max's expertise. Allow me a few ramblings. While you did take a nice sample of examples from different English speaking countries, they were all from newspapers. In Australia, newspapers have long used the American spellings; they used color, labor, . . . long before other Australians. I found this strange as a kid. In fact, I believe my old Collins Australian Dictionary would have given "r\^ole". The Macquarie Dictionary gives "r\^ole" as a second usage as American influences are growing. The English word, as we know, comes from the French "r\^ole" for roll of paper on which an actor's part was written. It was quite legitimate for Webster to pin down American spelling before it had stabilized in England and before the fashion in England favoured the French spellings such as "programme". I suspect that "r\^ole" was part of that revision. (Funnily, the French at the same time favoured English words and names such as Edith.) So I don't think it is in mathematics especially, except that we are a bit conservative when it comes to language. "Shew" was in my mathematics text books as an undergraduate, and not in any other texts. The typewriter, computer and mobile/cellular phone have also helped eliminate accents (and, unfortunately, apostrophes). Who wants to look at <r\^ole>? Or <ü> or <é> in the way my mailer transforms it to yours? But I do want to preserve the distinctions: between <its> and <it's>, <building's>, <buildings>, and <buildings'> . End of ramble. Ross On 10/10/2007, at 7:04 AM, Peter Selinger wrote:
Does anyone know why it is common, in papers on logic, semantics, and category theory, to spell the word "role" the French way, i.e., with a circumflex accent? I am taking about the idiom "to play a role", as in, "in this definition, x and y play symmetric r\^oles". Sometimes it is also used as in "the r\^ole of x is ...".
Hi Tim, thanks for your reply. From the replies I have received, it seems that the accented spelling is still reasonably common, at least among the educated, in the UK. I had not been aware of this. It is almost certainly extinct in North America, where I had never seen it outside of mathematics. Best, -- Peter tporter@informatics.bangor.ac.uk wrote:
Dear Peter,
A quick check in the Chambers dictionary gives r\^ole as an alternative spelling and derives the word from the French. The Robert and the Petit Larousse both give its origins (12th c) as from latin rota or rotulus so the circumflex is the usual sign of a missing consonant. The word was adopted into English a long time ago, so the circumflex is not needed in that language any longer, but I have seen it used in the (better) newspapers in the UK. I won't give what the tabloid press would give as spelling!!!!!
The French meaning includes that of roll. Perhaps an interesting story of its use spelling would be worth while ferreting out.
Best wishes,
Tim
--=20
Gall y neges e-bost hon, ac unrhyw atodiadau a anfonwyd gyda hi, gynnwys deunydd cyfrinachol ac wedi eu bwriadu i'w defnyddio'n unig gan y sawl y cawsant eu cyfeirio ato (atynt). Os ydych wedi derbyn y neges e-bost hon trwy gamgymeriad, rhowch wybod i'r anfonwr ar unwaith a dil=EBwch y neges. Os na fwriadwyd anfon y neges atoch chi, rhaid i chi beidio =E2 defnyddio, cadw neu ddatgelu unrhyw wybodaeth a gynhwysir ynddi. Mae unrhyw farn neu safbwynt yn eiddo i'r sawl a'i hanfonodd yn unig ac nid yw o anghenraid yn cynrychioli barn Prifysgol Bangor. Nid yw Prifysgol Bangor yn gwarantu bod y neges e-bost hon neu unrhyw atodiadau yn rhydd rhag firysau neu 100% yn ddiogel. Oni bai fod hyn wedi ei ddatgan yn uniongyrchol yn nhestun yr e-bost, nid bwriad y neges e-bost hon yw ffurfio contract rhwymol - mae rhestr o lofnodwyr awdurdodedig ar gael o Swyddfa Cyllid Prifysgol Bangor. www.bangor.ac.uk (YCYG)
This email and any attachments may contain confidential material and is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you must not use, retain or disclose any information contained in this email. Any views or opinions are solely those of the sender and do not necessarily represent those of Bangor University. Bangor University does not guarantee that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or 100% secure. Unless expressly stated in the body of the text of the email, this email is not intended to form a binding contract - a list of authorised signatories is available from the Bangor University Finance Office. www.bangor.ac.uk (SEECS)
Dear Peter With questions like this, we naturally miss Max's expertise. Allow me a few ramblings. While you did take a nice sample of examples from different English speaking countries, they were all from newspapers. In Australia, newspapers have long used the American spellings; they used color, labor, . . . long before other Australians. I found this strange as a kid. In fact, I believe my old Collins Australian Dictionary would have given "r\^ole". The Macquarie Dictionary gives "r\^ole" as a second usage as American influences are growing. The English word, as we know, comes from the French "r\^ole" for roll of paper on which an actor's part was written. It was quite legitimate for Webster to pin down American spelling before it had stabilized in England and before the fashion in England favoured the French spellings such as "programme". I suspect that "r\^ole" was part of that revision. (Funnily, the French at the same time favoured English words and names such as Edith.) So I don't think it is in mathematics especially, except that we are a bit conservative when it comes to language. "Shew" was in my mathematics text books as an undergraduate, and not in any other texts. The typewriter, computer and mobile/cellular phone have also helped eliminate accents (and, unfortunately, apostrophes). Who wants to look at <r\^ole>? Or <ü> or <é> in the way my mailer transforms it to yours? But I do want to preserve the distinctions: between <its> and <it's>, <building's>, <buildings>, and <buildings'> . End of ramble. Ross On 10/10/2007, at 7:04 AM, Peter Selinger wrote:
Does anyone know why it is common, in papers on logic, semantics, and category theory, to spell the word "role" the French way, i.e., with a circumflex accent? I am taking about the idiom "to play a role", as in, "in this definition, x and y play symmetric r\^oles". Sometimes it is also used as in "the r\^ole of x is ...".
Hi Peter My best guess is "olde age" Those of us who are olde enough use acccents Only the young adopt the moderne tymes usage :) best winks Mícheál On 9 Oct 2007, at 22:04, Peter Selinger wrote:
Hi everybody,
here is a frivolous question only tangentially related to category theory.
Does anyone know why it is common, in papers on logic, semantics, and category theory, to spell the word "role" the French way, i.e., with a circumflex accent? I am taking about the idiom "to play a role", as in, "in this definition, x and y play symmetric r\^oles". Sometimes it is also used as in "the r\^ole of x is ...".
As far as I can tell, the accented spelling is a strange ideosyncrasy, given that the word "role", without the accent, is a perfectly acceptable, and very common, English word. Here are some examples I collected a few years ago:
How big a role did politics play? -Los Angeles Times, March 27, 2002 Huge bomb could play role in Iraq. -The Guardian, March 13, 2003 Australia intends to play a role in [...] Iraq, The Australian, 4/15/2003 A movie in which Nicole Kidman could play the lead role -Business Times, 1/16/3 Genetics play a big role in your health. -Citizen-Times.com, April 11, 2003 Linux prepares to play broader role in embedded systems. -EETimes, 6/11/2001 The UN would play a central role in running the country. -Guardian, 4/10/2003 His role is to lead the paddlers through the race -Waterfront News, Oct 2007 How oil plays a role in an invasion of Iraq. -YellowTimes.org, Jan 22, 2003
I realize that Merriam Webster's Dictionary allows "r\^ole" as an alternate spelling (the Oxford English Dictionary does not, as far as I can see online). However, I have never seen it spelled with the circumflex accent anywhere outside of mathematics.
So why is it that so many mathematical authors spell it that way? One explanation would be that the authors are French; however, this does not seem to be empirically true. I have most often seen the spelling used by non-French authors. Another possible explanation is that the word "r\^ole" has a technical meaning that differentiates it from "role". However, I can't imagine what it would be.
Maybe this habit has been passed on for generations. Can it perhaps be traced back to a misspelling in some influential article?
-- Peter
yes, that is an interesting question. in fact, i have a similar question about the words star and dagger. although they are perfectly acceptable english words on their own, in the context of categories we write *-autonomous and %-compact, even in the titles, where star-autonomous and dagger-compact would say the same, just look easier to pronounce. but then again, with my name and surname gaining and losing accents as i go, maybe i should not ask such questions. -- du$ko On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Peter Selinger wrote:
Hi everybody,
here is a frivolous question only tangentially related to category theory.
Does anyone know why it is common, in papers on logic, semantics, and category theory, to spell the word "role" the French way, i.e., with a circumflex accent? I am taking about the idiom "to play a role", as in, "in this definition, x and y play symmetric r\^oles". Sometimes it is also used as in "the r\^ole of x is ...".
As far as I can tell, the accented spelling is a strange ideosyncrasy, given that the word "role", without the accent, is a perfectly acceptable, and very common, English word. Here are some examples I collected a few years ago:
How big a role did politics play? -Los Angeles Times, March 27, 2002 Huge bomb could play role in Iraq. -The Guardian, March 13, 2003 Australia intends to play a role in [...] Iraq, The Australian, 4/15/2003 A movie in which Nicole Kidman could play the lead role -Business Times, 1/16/3 Genetics play a big role in your health. -Citizen-Times.com, April 11, 2003 Linux prepares to play broader role in embedded systems. -EETimes, 6/11/2001 The UN would play a central role in running the country. -Guardian, 4/10/2003 His role is to lead the paddlers through the race -Waterfront News, Oct 2007 How oil plays a role in an invasion of Iraq. -YellowTimes.org, Jan 22, 2003
I realize that Merriam Webster's Dictionary allows "r\^ole" as an alternate spelling (the Oxford English Dictionary does not, as far as I can see online). However, I have never seen it spelled with the circumflex accent anywhere outside of mathematics.
So why is it that so many mathematical authors spell it that way? One explanation would be that the authors are French; however, this does not seem to be empirically true. I have most often seen the spelling used by non-French authors. Another possible explanation is that the word "r\^ole" has a technical meaning that differentiates it from "role". However, I can't imagine what it would be.
Maybe this habit has been passed on for generations. Can it perhaps be traced back to a misspelling in some influential article?
-- Peter
Dear Peter, Fowler (I have the 1965 edition) says, "there being no other word 'role' from which it has to be kept distinct, both the italics and the accent might well be abandoned." He also refers (under an article on 'morale') to the "sanctity of the French form". The word comes from French, and French gives it the accent, and some like to display their knowledge of this fact. But Fowler's argument is that English is not obliged to keep the French form. Returning to category theory, and topos theory in particular, I can't resist also quoting his guidance on Latin plurals (which surely must apply even more to Greek): "All that can be safely said [regarding whether to prefer or avoid the Latin form] is that there is a tendency to abandon the Latin plurals, and that, when one is really in doubt which to use, the English form should be given the preference." Regards, Steve. Peter Selinger wrote:
Hi everybody,
here is a frivolous question only tangentially related to category theory.
Does anyone know why it is common, in papers on logic, semantics, and category theory, to spell the word "role" the French way, i.e., with a circumflex accent? I am taking about the idiom "to play a role", as in, "in this definition, x and y play symmetric r\^oles". Sometimes it is also used as in "the r\^ole of x is ...".
As far as I can tell, the accented spelling is a strange ideosyncrasy, given that the word "role", without the accent, is a perfectly acceptable, and very common, English word. Here are some examples I collected a few years ago:
How big a role did politics play? -Los Angeles Times, March 27, 2002 Huge bomb could play role in Iraq. -The Guardian, March 13, 2003 Australia intends to play a role in [...] Iraq, The Australian, 4/15/2003 A movie in which Nicole Kidman could play the lead role -Business Times, 1/16/3 Genetics play a big role in your health. -Citizen-Times.com, April 11, 2003 Linux prepares to play broader role in embedded systems. -EETimes, 6/11/2001 The UN would play a central role in running the country. -Guardian, 4/10/2003 His role is to lead the paddlers through the race -Waterfront News, Oct 2007 How oil plays a role in an invasion of Iraq. -YellowTimes.org, Jan 22, 2003
I realize that Merriam Webster's Dictionary allows "r\^ole" as an alternate spelling (the Oxford English Dictionary does not, as far as I can see online). However, I have never seen it spelled with the circumflex accent anywhere outside of mathematics.
So why is it that so many mathematical authors spell it that way? One explanation would be that the authors are French; however, this does not seem to be empirically true. I have most often seen the spelling used by non-French authors. Another possible explanation is that the word "r\^ole" has a technical meaning that differentiates it from "role". However, I can't imagine what it would be.
Maybe this habit has been passed on for generations. Can it perhaps be traced back to a misspelling in some influential article?
-- Peter
Dear Peter, Fowler (I have the 1965 edition) says, "there being no other word 'role' from which it has to be kept distinct, both the italics and the accent might well be abandoned." He also refers (under an article on 'morale') to the "sanctity of the French form". The word comes from French, and French gives it the accent, and some like to display their knowledge of this fact. But Fowler's argument is that English is not obliged to keep the French form. Returning to category theory, and topos theory in particular, I can't resist also quoting his guidance on Latin plurals (which surely must apply even more to Greek): "All that can be safely said [regarding whether to prefer or avoid the Latin form] is that there is a tendency to abandon the Latin plurals, and that, when one is really in doubt which to use, the English form should be given the preference." Regards, Steve. Peter Selinger wrote:
Hi everybody,
here is a frivolous question only tangentially related to category theory.
Does anyone know why it is common, in papers on logic, semantics, and category theory, to spell the word "role" the French way, i.e., with a circumflex accent? I am taking about the idiom "to play a role", as in, "in this definition, x and y play symmetric r\^oles". Sometimes it is also used as in "the r\^ole of x is ...".
As far as I can tell, the accented spelling is a strange ideosyncrasy, given that the word "role", without the accent, is a perfectly acceptable, and very common, English word. Here are some examples I collected a few years ago:
How big a role did politics play? -Los Angeles Times, March 27, 2002 Huge bomb could play role in Iraq. -The Guardian, March 13, 2003 Australia intends to play a role in [...] Iraq, The Australian, 4/15/2003 A movie in which Nicole Kidman could play the lead role -Business Times, 1/16/3 Genetics play a big role in your health. -Citizen-Times.com, April 11, 2003 Linux prepares to play broader role in embedded systems. -EETimes, 6/11/2001 The UN would play a central role in running the country. -Guardian, 4/10/2003 His role is to lead the paddlers through the race -Waterfront News, Oct 2007 How oil plays a role in an invasion of Iraq. -YellowTimes.org, Jan 22, 2003
I realize that Merriam Webster's Dictionary allows "r\^ole" as an alternate spelling (the Oxford English Dictionary does not, as far as I can see online). However, I have never seen it spelled with the circumflex accent anywhere outside of mathematics.
So why is it that so many mathematical authors spell it that way? One explanation would be that the authors are French; however, this does not seem to be empirically true. I have most often seen the spelling used by non-French authors. Another possible explanation is that the word "r\^ole" has a technical meaning that differentiates it from "role". However, I can't imagine what it would be.
Maybe this habit has been passed on for generations. Can it perhaps be traced back to a misspelling in some influential article?
-- Peter
I realize that Merriam Webster's Dictionary allows "r\^ole" as an alternate spelling (the Oxford English Dictionary does not, as far as I can see online).
A copy on my desk of the OED from the '70s does.
However, I have never seen it spelled with the circumflex accent anywhere outside of mathematics.
There certainly are examples. Not to hand right now.
So why is it that so many mathematical authors spell it that way? One explanation would be that the authors are French; however, this does not seem to be empirically true. I have most often seen the spelling used by non-French authors. Another possible explanation is that the word "r\^ole" has a technical meaning that differentiates it from "role". However, I can't imagine what it would be.
Maybe this habit has been passed on for generations. Can it perhaps be traced back to a misspelling in some influential article?
I think it's quite generational/educational. People (at least in the UK) who have been taught English in a grammatically and etymologcally rigorous way will tend to use the accent (ditto in café and others) resolve the phonics (and, secondarily, respect the etymology). Perhaps mathematicians are strongly represented in this group. It's not a mis-spelling. djp
-- Peter
-- Prof. David J. Pym t: +44 (0) 117 312 8012 Principal Scientist f: +44 (0) 117 312 9250 HP Labs e: david.pym@hp.com Bristol, UK w: http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/davpym/ Professor of Logic & Computation, University of Bath, UK Hewlett-Packard Limited Registered Office: Cain Road, Bracknell, Berks RG12 1HN. Registered No: 690597 England. The contents of this message, its subsequent correspondence, and any attachments to it are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you have received this message in error, you should delete it from your system immediately and advise the sender. Do not send, forward, or (b)cc replies to additional recipients without my explicit consent. To any recipient of this message within HP, unless otherwise stated you should consider this message and attachments as "HP CONFIDENTIAL".
Michael Barr wrote:
Another affectation is using "topoi" as the plural of topos. If you insist on that, you should use the genetive of "of topos" and the accusative when it is the direct object--not to mention the vocative when addressing a topos.
What a great idea. You may have started a movement here. Topos: omicron declension (second) . Singular (one) Dual (two) Plural (many) Nom topos topo topoi Gen topou topoin topon Dat topoi topoin topois Acc topon topo topous Voc tope topo topoi (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_grammar ) Be careful when addressing two topo after dinner---if you hail them as topoi they may think you've had one too many. On a related note, anyone know whether topos is masculine or feminine? Ignorance there could get you off to a bad start with two topoin. Vaughan
Let me tell you a (slightly) amusing story. Beno Eckmann warned me that all librarians would hate me if I called it "$*$-Autonomous Categories". I saw his point immediately and had every intention of changing it. But in the process of getting it typed and so on, I just plain forgot. So although I do object to *-autonomous (without the dollar signs that put it on the line), I would have no problem with star-autonomous. On ne saurait penser a tout, as they say on some obscure langauge. Michael On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Dusko Pavlovic wrote:
yes, that is an interesting question. in fact, i have a similar question about the words star and dagger. although they are perfectly acceptable english words on their own, in the context of categories we write *-autonomous and %-compact, even in the titles, where star-autonomous and dagger-compact would say the same, just look easier to pronounce.
but then again, with my name and surname gaining and losing accents as i go, maybe i should not ask such questions.
-- du$ko
Michael Barr wrote in part:
Another affectation is using "topoi" as the plural of topos. If you insist on that, you should use the genetive of "of topos" and the accusative when it is the direct object--not to mention the vocative when addressing a topos.
That's not really fair; there's a long history in English, when adopting a foreign noun, of adopting the foreign plural as well (then switching to an "-s" plural when the noun becomes less foreign, or occasionally using the plural form only as a collective noun). However, this practice uses only one case, usually nominative. So by saying "topoi", one pretends that "topos" is a real Greek word (in this sense) and that it's still a foreign word with a foreign plural. This pretence is an affectation, certainly, but it is complete in itself. --Toby
Steve Vickers writes:
Returning to category theory, and topos theory in particular, I can't resist also quoting his guidance on Latin plurals (which surely must apply even more to Greek): "All that can be safely said [regarding whether to prefer or avoid the Latin form] is that there is a tendency to abandon the Latin plurals, and that, when one is really in doubt which to use, the English form should be given the preference."
Having looked at both a few authorities and some publications outside of category theory where the word is used, I am curious if there is any field other than category theory where the plural of topos is not topoi? -- Bob -- Robert L. Knighten RLK@knighten.org
Steve Vickers, aka s.j.vickers@cs.bham.ac.uk , notes
Fowler (I have the 1965 edition) says, "there being no other word 'role' from which it has to be kept distinct, both the italics and the accent might well be abandoned."
Same words almost exactly, but for the "and" above taking the form of an "&", in my 1952 reprint of the 1937 (twice corrected) version of the 1911 edition. Fowler takes a dim view of -- one might even say, rails against -- the use of French words in English: his article "French words" begins, "Display of superior knowledge is as great a vulgarity as display of superior wealth -- greater, indeed, inasmuch as knowledge should tend more definitely than wealth towards discretion & good manners." Salut :-) , -- Fred
[Note from moderator: this may be a good note on which to close this thread.] On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Vaughan Pratt wrote:
Michael Barr wrote:
Another affectation is using "topoi" as the plural of topos. If you insist on that, you should use the genetive of "of topos" and the accusative when it is the direct object--not to mention the vocative when addressing a topos.
What a great idea. You may have started a movement here.
Topos: omicron declension (second)
. Singular (one) Dual (two) Plural (many) Nom topos topo topoi Gen topou topoin topon Dat topoi topoin topois Acc topon topo topous Voc tope topo topoi
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_grammar )
Be careful when addressing two topo after dinner---if you hail them as topoi they may think you've had one too many. On a related note, anyone know whether topos is masculine or feminine? Ignorance there could get you off to a bad start with two topoin.
Now, now, if we're really embracing the ancient grammar to this extent, then we should drop the prepositions that english uses to accomodate the same semantic space that once was handled by cases. Thus, I would rewrite the above as "Ignorance there could get you off to a bad start topoin." And of course, once we enter this course, what's more natural than letting old english, and even old norse guide our cases throughout? -- Mikael Vejdemo Johansson | To see the world in a grain of sand mik@math.su.se | And heaven in a wild flower | To hold infinity in the palm of your hand | And eternity for an hour
Some examples in support of what Toby Bartels <toby+spam@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
... there's a long history in English, when adopting a foreign noun, of adopting the foreign plural as well ...
Examples: alumni and alumnae, not alumnuses; simplices, not simplexes; vertices, not vertexes; phenomena, not phenomenons; data, not datums. [Not that there aren't counterexamples, too.] -- Fred
Perhaps all the categorists who insist on toposes instead of topoi will teach their lower division students about coordinate axises and look forward to greeting them when they return to the university as alumnuses? (Naturally if they do this they will omit the diaresis from the second o in coordinate.) (Sorry to be contrarian, but I've always been fond of the Greek plural, and the diaresis on the o in co\"{o}rdinate.) Best Thoughts, David Y. On 10 Oct 2007, at 22:04, Robert L Knighten wrote:
Steve Vickers writes:
Returning to category theory, and topos theory in particular, I can't resist also quoting his guidance on Latin plurals (which surely must apply even more to Greek): "All that can be safely said [regarding whether to prefer or avoid the Latin form] is that there is a tendency to abandon the Latin plurals, and that, when one is really in doubt which to use, the English form should be given the preference."
Having looked at both a few authorities and some publications outside of category theory where the word is used, I am curious if there is any field other than category theory where the plural of topos is not topoi?
-- Bob
-- Robert L. Knighten RLK@knighten.org
participants (16)
-
David Pym -
David Yetter -
Dusko Pavlovic -
Fred E.J. Linton -
Michael Barr -
Mikael Vejdemo Johansson -
Mícheál Mac_an_Airchinnigh -
Phil Scott -
Robert L Knighten -
Ross Street -
selinger -
selinger＠mathstat.dal.ca -
Steve Vickers -
Toby Bartels -
tporter＠informatics.bangor.ac.uk -
Vaughan Pratt