Just thought some in the list may not be aware. Greetings e.d. =============================================================== Von: David Mumford [mailto:dbmumford@gmail.com] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. August 2011 18:11 An: Caroline Series; Rob Kirby; Don McClure; Peter J Olver; Martin Groetschel; John Ball; Ingrid Daubechies; Jeremy Mumford; notices@math.wustl.edu; vicente.munoz@mat.ucm.es; Peter Michor Betreff: Fwd: Elsevier Dear Friends, My son sent me the link below to a very strong and very clear article in the Guardian about the huge fees charged by technical publishers for access to journals. It represents how I have felt for a long time, how the math community among others is being outrageously exploited. I feel it ought to galvanize scientists/mathematicians to react and would like to suggest reprinting it in e.g. the Notices of the AMS, the Newsletter of the EMS, the news email from the IMU, etc. The simple response for mathematicians is to cease submitting any papers to Elsevier or Springer journals. (Excuse me but I am sending this to a somewhat random sample of people that occurred to me and whose email address I had -- eg I don't have an address for Ewing or Friedlander.) yrs faithfully, David http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/29/academic-publishers-murd... ================================================================= [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
This is interesting, but should not be news to any of us. Anyone who is not aware of this situation in academic publishing simply has not been paying attention or doesn't care. I have a colleague who publishes all his papers in high-prestige high-cost journals. He was receptive to my plea to use cheaper or free journals but said his coauthors were not. But governments are complicit too. It took TAC 15 years to get ISI to agree to index it. I have forgotten, but there was something funny about AMS Reviews indexing TAC papers, although they do at least review them. In Europe they use indicators such as ISI to determine what they call "impact factors". Non-indexed journals have, ipso facto, no impact. I don't know about NSF, but NSERC committees make their own judgments (or did when I was on the grant selection committee, 92-95). It is not well known, but Elsevier at least will accept a one-time license in lieu of a full copyright transfer. At least they did in 1995, which is the last time I published in a journal of restricted access (JPAA). I don't know if anyone has paid to download one of the two papers I published then, but if so they owe me the copy fee. Naturally, they've made no such attempt. As you know TAC is free to all. There are no charges to authors or readers. The editors and reviewers are not paid, but no journal pays them. The only costs are the storage space at Mt. A. (a totally trivial cost which Mt. A. donates) and time and effort Bob spends on it, which is his contribution. I know from Peter Freyd when he was managing editor of JPAA that he got enough money from them to pay a part-time assistant. So much for their costs. Once upon a time, it was certainly the case that typesetting was costly. Now the authors do that. And author-submitted TeX has vastly improved over the years and now most submissions need only a trivial amount of copy editing. As it happens, my daughter used to work for Wiley. She started out with a small (she was employee #8) publisher in a niche market. When she needed a new copy editor or proofreader, she went to the owner, made her case, and got an instant yes or no answer. They occupied a brownstone in Brooklyn and made a tidy profit. But the owner needed capital to expand and raised it by selling half the company to Wiley. After disagreements, Wiley took it over and (mis)managed it their own way. When the lease expired, they moved the operation to their Manhattan offices (later the whole operation moved to Hoboken). But a funny thing happened. Even though they saved on the Brooklyn lease (which could not have been less than $10,000 a month--it was all four floors of what had been a large house near Prospect Park) the division was accounted as losing money. Why? Well, they got charged a proportionate share of the costs of being downtown and similarly a share of administrative costs. When my daughter needed something, it had to go through five levels of management above her and took weeks or months. Then there were corporate jets to pay for, executive bonuses, all the diseconomies of scale. Managers are fond of going on about economies of scale, but nore reticent over the diseconomies. What is to be done. First the libraries should drop the subscriptions to the big academic journals. This will be painful at first, but eventually researchers will learn that no one is reading their articles and maybe choose cheaper, if temporarily lower, prestige. Start our own online publications. Many in other fields charge authors page charges; this seems to be less needed in math because we mostly don't need costly illustrations. For diagrams we have xy-pic (and, dare I mention it, diagxy) which do everything I need. Second, get the libraries to use the money they save on the outrageous subscriptions and give a bit of it to subsidize these new journals. Also there are print journals that are relatively inexpensive, a few hundred a year. Use them. Finally convince granting agencies to find better ways of measuring impact. At least temporarily until this all gets sorted out. How do we get there from here? Damfino! Michael [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
I'd like to mention "Journal of Logic and Analysis", free and efficiently run by Nigel Cutland at York. It includes good articles in that awkward area of non-classical approaches to analysis. It has published an article of mine and it seemed the right place, but should I recommend it to younger researchers? Steve Vickers. [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
A further complication is the role of Thomsons Reuters ISI, since some countries will consider a journal as worth rating for research assessment if and only if it is listed by ISI. I believe Thomsons Reuters is doing very well out of ISI. In 2003 I did a small survey of editors of small journals from an EMS list, and they were either ignorant of ISI or antipathetic to the procedures of the so called `journal assessment'. Usually , requests to be considered seemed to go into a blank hole. I was considering a letter to the AMS Newsletter, but in the end decided to fight for my own corner. and so wrote to Dr James Testa of ISI, saying that the lack of listing of TAC, JHRS and Cahiers failed to recognise the importance of thse journals for category theory, and that editors found the ISI procedures impenetrable and were bitter about this. I got a nice letter back, and a new letter from Mr Rodney Chonka, which has led to the listing of TAC. Mr Chonka is a wide ranging editor for ISI, but his qualifications are unknown. I felt this contrasted with the well publicised academic reputations of editors of journals which were being refused listing. Ronnie Brown Extract from my letter of 19 Nov 2009. "By relying on `impact factor' there is no allowance for the slow acceptance of new ideas, and it seems certain that the use of the ISI methodology is a brake on scientific progress, and of the development and influence of new ideas. This is certainly true in category theory, an area developed in the second half of the last century, has had a major influence in unifying mathematics, and has developed new methods particularly in higher dimensional algebra. " On 01/09/2011 19:55, Steve Vickers wrote:
I'd like to mention "Journal of Logic and Analysis", free and efficiently run by Nigel Cutland at York. It includes good articles in that awkward area of non-classical approaches to analysis.
It has published an article of mine and it seemed the right place, but should I recommend it to younger researchers?
Steve Vickers.
[For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
Dear Eduardo, I, too, consult ArXiv quite often, but I do so knowing that the articles in question are unrefereed preprints, as are lectures. This may be stimulating but, even as a way to establish priority, it is quite dubious. For instance, in ArXiv, one has the possibility of updating a posting, and so correct mistakes or add comments received privately. I do not know if the new postings replace the old one or coexists with it. The referee system has its drawbacks, but it is normally of use, not only to the readers and institutions, but also to the author(s). Posting in ArXiv should always be followed by a publication in a refereed journal, but it not always is. As for journals in which the costs of publishing are nil, we categorists have the fortune of having a reputable journal such as TAC where to send our papers. In this I totally agree with Mike Barr. Cahiers is, to a lesser extent perhaps, another such instance, and it can now be accessed electronically (Numdam). There are also refereed proceedings of festshrifts or conferences which may not be rated as high as some journals, but which are part of our community life and, in some sense, a duty that we have towards our respected colleagues. As for high cost journals, I once signed a pledge not to publish in any Elsevier journal, and advertised my action in categories. Several people in this forum thought this was stupid, but others praised me. It is a matter of conscience. I do not have a solution, but asking libraries to stop subscribing to prestigious journals is in my view utopic. I already suggested requesting funding agencies and university policy makers to give higher ratings to journals which deserve to be so considered, particularly when the author gives reasons for choosing such journals rather than the high end ones. Finally, I (and so, anyone) can access ArXiv postings without any problem- it is not hard to locate what one wants to read in them. An excellent source of information, but it could never replace refereed journals. Regards, Marta
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 15:26:19 -0300 From: edubuc@dm.uba.ar To: categories@mta.ca Subject: categories: Re: science_publishers
Marta Bunge writes:
"it is (still) a measure of success by grant giving agencies to have published in such journals and, in turn, a measure for promotion considerations."
Michael Barr writes:
"Finally convince granting agencies to find better ways of measuring impact."
This is just the real problem. Michael, it is not "finally", but "first of all".
Once this is changed, high ranked journals will be in trouble.
But, I am afraid it will be impossible. There is an arrow in evolution, and this arrow points into the fact that journals rankings and impact factors are going to be more and more determinant for the academic career of 99% of the mathematicians (expet for the future few Grothendiecks Serres Cartans and the like).
Something on the other hand can be attempted:
1) Make a strong campaign so to popularize and convince all authors to send their papers to the arXiv.
2) Convince all libraries to stop all subscriptions to journals, and install electronic easy to use catalogs of all arXiv papers, have them in stock, and furnish the structure for the immediate printing of requested papers.
Personally, most of the reading I am doing recently are from arXiv papers, not from published papers.
On the other hand, the only papers which are considered for grant soliciting, promotions (and even worst, here if you stop publishing you loose your job, which is at stake every 7 years) are published papers, the more high ranked (impact factor) the journal the better.
So, to read the work of others, and make your own work known, you will use the arXiv, to get ahead in your academic career you will publish (papers which nobody will need to buy).
e.d.
[For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
A followup Guardian article, from Ben Goldacre: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/02/bad-science-academic-pub... In case you don't know him already, Goldacre's weekly "Bad Science" column is generally a good read. Mostly he writes about media reporting of medical research, with particular emphasis on how statistical findings are reported. Steve. [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
From what you say below, you also think
Dear Zoran, I do not disagree entirely with the idea of just looking up people that we know and trust wherever they post/publish their work. But this does not apply to a lot of work posted in ArXiv, and there is no guarantee of any sort. One would have to do the refereeing oneself if one wanted to quote it. that some measure for maintaining a level of control over what is posted in ArXiv is desirable. I refer to your statement “Thus we need to get overlay boards to referee and certify certain version of arxiv papers by usual procedures and without involvement of commercial journals. We should value author's work according to the theorems and not according to the journals where they appeared or did not. We should also make available independent criticism of papers in forms of discussions, reviews etc. independent from weather the paper has been published or not.” I entirely agree. You also wrote “I know of lots of published nonsense, and false statements in hi-impact journals, and massive works which are valuable and correct and are not in the journals. I am not talking only Perelman's preprints but far much more.” I also agree with your statement above. One can, however, ignore published nonsense, but what to do with false statements in high-impact journals if the author does not care to offer a correction or even post a note indicating that an error has unfortunately occurred? Perhaps with a dynamic ArXiv this state of affairs would most likely improve the situation, as it would make such actions less problematic. Indeed there is much valuable work that is not published. Regards, Marta Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:55:24 +0200 Subject: Re: categories: Re: science_publishers From: zskoda@gmail.com To: martabunge@hotmail.com Dear Marta, I have slight doubts about your reservations about the arxiv you posted on the category list. First of all, all versions are stamped with a date and the sources of all versions are non-removable from the main archive (though in some mirrors some of old versions may be non-available). Second, while I agree in the importance of refereeing I do not understand insistence on being published as a synonym. Einstein's papers are mainly published and unrefereed. The unpublished paper can be reviewed in detail and in public. Finally the arxiv can evolve and host a circle of boards which would place refereed by that and that board to some versions of arxiv paper. So you can have v1 v2 v3 and v4 refereed by journal xyz which exists only as an overlay of arxiv. There is nothing bad in having v5 which is improved and updated in author's opinion even over certified version 4. I know some people who are in academia and do not send to journals any more, just to some archive out of their conviction. One of them tells me, why would some board tell me what to read, I decide whom I trust and whom I will read. Once I know a name I can look up on line and find an article, he says. Indeed, I trust every paper with the author name Ofer Gabber much more than a paper with stamp Annals of Mathematics. Thus we need to get overlay boards to referee and certify certain version of arxiv papers by usual procedures and without involvement of commercial journals. We should value author's work according to the theorems and not according to the journals where they appeared or did not. We should also make available independent criticism of papers in forms of discussions, reviews etc. independent from weather the paper has been published or not. I know of lots of published nonsense, and false statements in hi-impact journals, and massive works which are valuable and correct and are not in the journals. I am not talking only Perelman's preprints but far much more. Sincerely, Zoran Skoda [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
Dear Marta, your msage does not contemplate the arXiv under the role I gave it in my msage. For me, in that msage, the arXiv is only considered as a meduim to broadcast your work. Only that. On 03/09/11 07:46, Marta Bunge wrote:
Dear Eduardo,
I, too, consult ArXiv quite often, but I do so knowing that the articles in question are unrefereed preprints, as are lectures.
perfect,whai is the problem ?
This may be stimulating but, even as a way to establish priority, it is quite dubious.
I was not thinking at all as a way to establish priority
For instance, in ArXiv, one has the possibility of updating a posting, and so correct mistakes or add comments received privately. I do not know if the new postings replace the old one or coexists with it.
and so, you read the arXive to see if it is useful for your work. You have to read the proofs to see if the statements are true. YOU are the referee in a way.
The referee system has its drawbacks, but it is normally of use, not only to the readers and institutions, but also to the author(s). Posting in ArXiv should always be followed by a publication in a refereed journal, but it not always is.
Yes, so as to make any good in your curriculum, the higher the impact factor (or ISI or whatever) the better. But it is completely IRRELEVANT for those that will actually understand and use your work. !! . As for the referee trouble, yes, I agree many times it is useful for both ends.
As for journals in which the costs of publishing are nil, we categorists have the fortune of having a reputable journal such as TAC where to send our papers. In this I totally agree with Mike Barr. Cahiers is, to a lesser extent perhaps, another such instance, and it can now be accessed electronically (Numdam). There are also refereed proceedings of festshrifts or conferences which may not be rated as high as some journals, but which are part of our community life and, in some sense, a duty that we have towards our respected colleagues. As for high cost journals, I once signed a pledge not to publish in any Elsevier journal, and advertised my action in categories. Several people in this forum thought this was stupid, but others praised me. It is a matter of conscience. I do not have a solution, but asking libraries to stop subscribing to prestigious journals is in my view utopic.
Probably,
I already suggested requesting funding agencies and university policy makers to give higher ratings to journals which deserve to be so considered, particularly when the author gives reasons for choosing such journals rather than the high end ones.
This is also utopic. If I said I do not publish this paper in Annals of mathematics, which I can perfectly do, by a matter of conscience, It is clear that for nobody in any evaluation comitee (even by peers) this declaration will have any value.
Finally, I (and so, anyone) can access ArXiv postings without any problem- it is not hard to locate what one wants to read in them. An excellent source of information, but it could never replace refereed journals.
Depends for what? . When the matter is to make your work known, it is even better than refereed journals. Actually, I think the first reason and "raison d'etre" of the journals at the time if their creation (19 th century or before) was the diffusion of correct knowledge. Now it has degenerate in curriculum build up. To diffusion of knowledge (right or wrong) we have the arXiv. The interested reader is its own referee. What is the problem ?. To utilize results (trusting a referee) without having taken the trouble to verify and understand the proofs it is not a good way to do mathematics. So, why care if the paper has been refereed or not ?
Regards,
Marta
many regards e.d.
[For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
Google is joining the citation game. I am not sure whether this is good or bad. http://scholar.google.com/intl/en/scholar/citations.html http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=B7vSqZsAAAAJ&hl=en Bas On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Jocelyn Ireson-Paine <popx@j-paine.org> wrote:
On Thu, 1 Sep 2011, Vaughan Pratt wrote:
The solution of authors voting with their feet is a very long-term one which does not address what's already in the literature but currently behind a paywall.
...
This issue has a particularly large impact on the current hot-button topic of global warming, where there are a lot of technically minded people without access to the relevant technical journals being cited on blogs by people on either side of the debate who do have access. Many of you will have noticed that a widespread feeling, particularly strong in the US and Australia, has been developing lately that there's a conspiracy between governments and scientists to tamper with the free market economy by inappropriately steering funding towards alternative energy proponents and providers. Locking influential articles behind a paywall has the unfortunate side effect of amplifying this feeling.
For that and other hot-button topics (vaccination and autism, aluminium and Alzheimer's, safety of nanotechnology, etc.), a more immediate and reliable solution would be welcome, in addition to the solution of voting with your feet.
Here's my suggestion, inspired by the music-sharing software Napster. Set up a Web site to which one can upload images of journal pages. Equip it with optical character-recognition software that in these images, can identify titles, authors' names, and other bibliographic information, and that can recognise whether an article is complete or not. Add a program that can assemble complete articles from partial page sets uploaded by different people. Call it the "Journal Colimit Construction" site. Advertise it to fervent believers in open access who are prepared to do something practical to support their belief: the something practical being to scan and upload an agreed-on number of pages per week from whatever journals they can find in their libraries. It might be a good idea to host the site in a country that doesn't recognise world copyright conventions.
The problem is not merely academic, it's also a serious social problem.
.... [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
[Note from moderator: TAC will indeed be covered by ISI someday, a decision revealed in 2010. There was also correspondence from ISI this April. Patience may be needed. While I'm writing, it should be pointed out that the discussion, while interesting to the moderator too, is off topic, and needs to end. Thanks.] Dear Ronnie, You say: "...since some countries will consider a journal as worth rating for research assessment if and only if it is listed by ISI..." "...I got a nice letter back, and a new letter from Mr Rodney Chonka, which has led to the listing of TAC." But what do you mean by "listed by ISI"? I asked about this someone who decides about (one of aspects of) research assessment at my university. The answer I got was: "...I cannot find this journal in the Science Citation Index on the ISI Web of Knowledge platform accessed from the library website, nor in the PDF list of ISI journals on the library website. I suspect that you located it on the Thompson-Reuters so-called "Master list", which I think lists all journals whether ISI rated or not - i.e. the ISI list is a subset of the "Master list". So I think that your journal is not an ISI-rated journal..." I also discussed this with Bob Rosebrugh, and it seems to us that TAC is "somewhere in ISI", but NOT on the right list, which those countries you mentioned would use. A recent message of Michael Barr says (among other things): "...It took TAC 15 years to get ISI to agree to index it...". But again, unfortunately it is not the list we need. Dear All, I wrote about this some time ago, and in particular Jim Stasheff agreed and tried to help, but let me repeat/add: I think we - meaning hundreds of people seriously interested in category theory - should try to: - Persuade Mathematical Reviews to use "Cahiers" and APCS for the citations (for TAC it is fortunately done, but only this year). - Persuade Thomsons Reuters to include "Cahiers" and TAC in their RIGHT list (for APCS it is fortunately done a long time ago). Please do not conclude that my opinion about Mathematical Reviews and/or Thomsons Reuters is "good", "bad", or any different from yours. Regards - George [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
Another page with the same viewpoint: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/journals.html On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Eduardo J. Dubuc <edubuc@dm.uba.ar> wrote:
Just thought some in the list may not be aware. Greetings e.d.
=============================================================== Von: David Mumford [mailto:dbmumford@gmail.com] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. August 2011 18:11 An: Caroline Series; Rob Kirby; Don McClure; Peter J Olver; Martin Groetschel; John Ball; Ingrid Daubechies; Jeremy Mumford; notices@math.wustl.edu; vicente.munoz@mat.ucm.es; Peter Michor Betreff: Fwd: Elsevier
Dear Friends,
My son sent me the link below to a very strong and very clear article in the Guardian about the huge fees charged by technical publishers for access to journals. It represents how I have felt for a long time, how the math community among others is being outrageously exploited. I feel it ought to galvanize scientists/mathematicians to react and would like to suggest reprinting it in e.g. the Notices of the AMS, the Newsletter of the EMS, the news email from the IMU, etc. The simple response for mathematicians is to cease submitting any papers to Elsevier or Springer journals. (Excuse me but I am sending this to a somewhat random sample of people that occurred to me and whose email address I had -- eg I don't have an address for Ewing or Friedlander.)
yrs faithfully,
David
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/29/academic-publishers-murd... =================================================================
[For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
The solution of authors voting with their feet is a very long-term one which does not address what's already in the literature but currently behind a paywall. Furthermore the authors with the highest impact are also the ones most likely to operate in a community all of whose members belong to institutions with subscriptions. Some of them (I have no idea what fraction) may even prefer the additional ivory-tower isolation provided by paywalls, so as not to have deal with outsiders, and many more will not be strongly motivated to change the status quo. I recall a meeting a few years ago at which Andy Odlyzko, who'd looked into the problem in some detail, offered economic reasons for why the status quo was hard to change, though I don't recall any calibration by him on where to draw the line at gouging. This issue has a particularly large impact on the current hot-button topic of global warming, where there are a lot of technically minded people without access to the relevant technical journals being cited on blogs by people on either side of the debate who do have access. Many of you will have noticed that a widespread feeling, particularly strong in the US and Australia, has been developing lately that there's a conspiracy between governments and scientists to tamper with the free market economy by inappropriately steering funding towards alternative energy proponents and providers. Locking influential articles behind a paywall has the unfortunate side effect of amplifying this feeling. For that and other hot-button topics (vaccination and autism, aluminium and Alzheimer's, safety of nanotechnology, etc.), a more immediate and reliable solution would be welcome, in addition to the solution of voting with your feet. The problem is not merely academic, it's also a serious social problem. Vaughan Pratt On 9/1/2011 7:11 AM, Mike Stay wrote:
Another page with the same viewpoint: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/journals.html
[For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
On Thu, 1 Sep 2011, Vaughan Pratt wrote:
The solution of authors voting with their feet is a very long-term one which does not address what's already in the literature but currently behind a paywall.
...
This issue has a particularly large impact on the current hot-button topic of global warming, where there are a lot of technically minded people without access to the relevant technical journals being cited on blogs by people on either side of the debate who do have access. Many of you will have noticed that a widespread feeling, particularly strong in the US and Australia, has been developing lately that there's a conspiracy between governments and scientists to tamper with the free market economy by inappropriately steering funding towards alternative energy proponents and providers. Locking influential articles behind a paywall has the unfortunate side effect of amplifying this feeling.
For that and other hot-button topics (vaccination and autism, aluminium and Alzheimer's, safety of nanotechnology, etc.), a more immediate and reliable solution would be welcome, in addition to the solution of voting with your feet.
Here's my suggestion, inspired by the music-sharing software Napster. Set up a Web site to which one can upload images of journal pages. Equip it with optical character-recognition software that in these images, can identify titles, authors' names, and other bibliographic information, and that can recognise whether an article is complete or not. Add a program that can assemble complete articles from partial page sets uploaded by different people. Call it the "Journal Colimit Construction" site. Advertise it to fervent believers in open access who are prepared to do something practical to support their belief: the something practical being to scan and upload an agreed-on number of pages per week from whatever journals they can find in their libraries. It might be a good idea to host the site in a country that doesn't recognise world copyright conventions.
The problem is not merely academic, it's also a serious social problem.
I completely agree. By the way, the problem once hit my teaching. I used to teach Artificial Intelligence at Oxford, in the department of Experimental Psychology. I lectured, ran tutorials, and gave practicals: but was brought in as a part-timer rather than being employed as a full-time lecturer. (There wasn't enough AI in the course to warrant full-time employment.) This mattered, because the department had subscriptions to various academic bibliographic databases. Like the journals, these were horribly expensive - except that the department had a free site licence. But _this was only available to full-timers_. So I was in the odd position of teaching, but having my adminstrator deny me materials that other staff members were allowed to use.
Vaughan Pratt
Jocelyn Ireson-Paine http://www.j-paine.org Jocelyn's Cartoons: http://www.j-paine.org/blog/jocelyns_cartoons/ [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
participants (10)
-
Bas Spitters -
Eduardo J. Dubuc -
George Janelidze -
Jocelyn Ireson-Paine -
Marta Bunge -
Michael Barr -
Mike Stay -
Ronnie Brown -
Steve Vickers -
Vaughan Pratt